Angelika Sharygina
Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to welcome you at the very first world higher education ranking Summit, West Conference. And today we are going to have a very exciting interview, the interview that will unleash the power of true leadership. Today's topic is a new model of leadership, being a leader, and the effective exercise of leadership. And I'm really honored and privileged to actually welcome Dr. Leslie and associate professor of the University of Florida, president of Gemini advising Executive Director of International Opportunities Unlimited, and weekly speaker at the US State Department. Dr. Leslie, very welcome. And we are really honored that you're here with us. And I know that we are expecting the audience from all over the world to join us right now tuning in from Canada, US United Arab Emirates, London, and many, many other incredible places. And they are united by one mission, to actually excel to learn, and transform. And I guess the topic today real leadership, it really matters to those that would like to create profound changes in their societies, in their communities, and in their academia. Welcome.

Dr. Michael Leslie.
Thank you very much. And thank you for the very generous introduction. Glad to be here. And I hope that what we speak about today will be a benefit to many. Thank you again, Angelica.

Angelika Sharygina
Thank you so much, Dr. Leslie.

Angelika Sharygina
I would like to start today's interview by addressing the words of a real leader, civil rights activist, a woman who has transformed her society.
Maya Angelou said a leader sees greatness in other people. He knows she can be much of a leader if all they see is themselves. Dr. Leslie, would you agree with that?

Dr. Michael Leslie
Yes, in fact, I think that what's important in what she said, is that many times we have to get ourselves out of the way. When we're leading, it's many of much of the time we think that it's, we have to be there, or it's something that we're doing, or it's something that we are that is making the difference. And usually, it's the people that are with us, if you would, or that we're interacting with that are making the difference. That's what it means to be a leader. It's not about us, it's about producing a future that otherwise would not occur. For that you need other people to be in alignment and produce that future. Yes, I would say that the real one really has to focus on getting oneself out of the way so that the results can show up.

Angelika Sharygina
This is just brilliant. And I'm very happy that we have opened such an important chapter in everyone's life leadership. And I would like to ask you a question that is very obvious. What is a leader to you? What is the meaning of leadership? Just maybe in a few sentences?

Dr. Michael Leslie
I think we can take this in two parts and look at it from the perspective of the work that we do, which is an ontological approach to leading and leadership or being a leader and leading effectively. So one definition and there are many, I mean, their books, probably 10,000 books about leadership, maybe more now in the age of the internet.

This is a very particular definition that we found to be very powerful. lead, being a leader is being capable, if you will, of bringing into existence, something that would otherwise not come into existence. That's what it means to be a leader.
Leadership itself is articulating that future in such a way that other people are enrolled are inspired to take action, if you would, to bring that vision you would, or that future, into existence. One is being a stand for bringing something forth that otherwise would not exist. And the second is being able to articulate that in the language in such a way that people see that future for themselves, or aspire to work towards that future, collaborate towards that future, and align with that future. So those are the two distinctions that make in this work.

Angelika Sharygina
It is super interesting to hear this concept of leadership and the ontological approach toward it. And while we are talking about the ontological approach, we ask ourselves. What is the source of the action of leadership? And as you just mentioned, we are more focused on the inner being not the outer qualities of the person exercising leadership.

Dr. Michael Leslie
You see our actions and facts sprang from who is being in the moment. For example, if I'm being a student, if my actual being is that a student, then there are certain things that I will do, I will probably take notes, I'll ask questions, I'll be present on time, I'll actually prepare for examinations. Those kinds of things spring from who you're being. And you can take that a little further, I might be being a poor student, I might be being an average student, or I might be being an excellent student, that being gives rise to certain behaviors that the student who wants to be is being average, maybe he doesn't take notes, maybe he doesn't come to class on time, or she, or maybe he doesn't even listen to the lectures, because he's being average. The beam of something actually determines the actions of that person, that individual, or unit of an organization.

Another example is that it's pertinent to our work. And that's what the being of a business, right being of a business could be making as much money as we can. And it doesn't make any difference how we make it even if we pollute the environment, or even if we were swift, I'm sorry, mistreat our workers. That's one type of the for an organization. But another kind of being that could be our being is sustainability, conserving the planet.

Yes, making a profit. But our being is not all about making a profit, you see. So that's why the being of an organization or the being of a person has a profound effect on the actions that person takes in the world and in the environment. How they transform community and their environments.

Angelika Sharygina
This is just brilliant doctor Leslie, we are here with the audience of deans, faculty, members, professors, and everyone in academia, that are leaders themselves. And they would love to learn more, about how they transform their community and their environments. What do you think I've been essential skills right now in the 21st century that will include sustainability?

Dr. Michael Leslie
Let me first I want to give some credit to him. There's a better understanding of what we're talking about here. This model has several aspects and it was developed by an independent thinker Werner Erhard, in conjunction with several academics. One of them was Michael Jensen at Harvard University. And then there's sorry, to me, I just blanked on the name of pull it up right now. You can probably do a physics edit. But so Steve Zafran, another owner of a consulting company, a consulting firm, it's been very effective in producing a change in organizations and businesses right around the world. Jerry Shepard another academic from the University of California, and Krish Cooper, also from the University of California at Los Angeles, put together this course that has the components that have won being a leader, not knowing out leadership, not trying to imitate what other people do, but actually be a source of a way of being that has you impact other people effectively. So I wanted to make sure I mentioned the source of this work, I'm an exponent of it because I've been trained in this model for over 20 years. There are several other mics around the world more than 400 Now who have been participating in this work and are able to offer this at the institution that they belong to.

The essential elements of leadership, the foundation of Singapore, known if you would have been a leader, and exercising leadership effectively, are four.

First Step:
The first one is there has to be a relationship of integrity, with your word, your word has to mean something to you, as in, if I say I'm going to do something, respecting the fact that you've given your word to that, and you're going to do it. If you don't do it, if you're not able to do it, because we can't always keep our word, making sure that you clean up the mess if you would, damage that's done by you're giving your word to someone, and then not fulfilling on your word, it's kind of like people are people trust us to do what we say we're going to do. And then if we do it great, everybody moves forward another step towards the goal. If we don't, then it damages our ability to evoke trust, to vote people for actually believe, and to follow to align with what we say. So the basic foundation, one of the basic, and I'm gonna give you four because it's a 20. I think a semester-long course. So I can give you know, there's this basic, essential password, this basic information about what must be there in order for one to lead effectively, to be a leader and lead effectively. So that relationship to one's word, that one of integrity.

Second Step:
The second is that you have to be authentic. Now, you know, people say that they're standing for something organizations do this all the time, you know, we want our workers or our faculty or our administrators to participate in the decision making process fully, and then they don't provide the mechanisms for that to occur authentically, online, like we're gonna get your survey tell us what you're thinking, you being able to have a say in how this organization moves and evolves, that's being authentic about your commitment to having people participate.
There has to be a level of authenticity, one has to comport oneself, or behave in correlation to the word that one has given. And alignment is one word that we use. So, there's that the second piece of it.

Third Step:
The third is, you know, when one is leading, or when one is being a leader, there will often be a circumstances or occasions when it gets tough, you know, you Your people will oppose what you want to, they won't understand it. They weigh may even disagree with it. I mean, that happens a lot. And but if you're committed to something larger than yourself, larger than how good you're going to vote, how much effort is going to take, whether it's, you know, you're tired of doing it, whether people like you or don't like you, if you're committed to actually something larger, like in a university setting, it would be one example. You know, we often talk about diversity and inclusion in our universities nowadays. Well, you know, that's not an easy one to take on. But if you're committed to having that be, then it's a ceases to have to come back to Angelica, the first part of our conversation, it ceases to be about you. It's about okay, this is what we want. This is what we're committed to, how can we do this? What do we need to do differently? What do I need to address what people do I need to actually speak to even though I don't want to speak to them, perhaps to have this move forward? So that's being committed to something larger than yourself. Diversity is something larger than how I feel about it or what people think of me.

Fourth Step:
The last piece is being caused in the bad Now, this is sometimes misunderstood. when things don't work, and they often don't, especially when you're leaving, there is a diff, two choices one can make. And I'm gonna just stay with this for just a second more, for a few seconds more, excuse me to be honest and be authentic about it. When things don't work, you can say, it's Angelicus fault, or it's Marjorie's fault, or it's Michaels fault or someone else's fault. But that's the way we typically, you know, proceed, we assign blame to someone else for things that don't work. In this model, you're saying that you are causing the matter, whatever doesn't work, you're responsible for making it work, doesn't mean you have to do all the work. But you assume the responsibility you as the leader for having it work, you're the cause. And when it works, you're also the cause, right? But that's a big, that's a huge departure from assigning blame and responsibility to other people, you're responsible. And then you act accordingly empowers you to do more than you would do. If you were, for example, assigning blame to others for things not working. So those are the four fundamental aspects of this model. They're not a logical model for good leader and leadership.

Angelika Sharygina
This is beyond thought and provoking and completely took my mind off. And, you know, this amazing whole qualities of leaders is that it's all about thinking about something that is bigger than ourselves. When you say that we have to be very consistent with our words, we have to respect our words and promises. It's also giving back to the society because we put others needs first, we respect all this, you wouldn't compromise this. When we are afraid, and many, we have some students watching us today, I know there are different people, different generations, and many of them are afraid to exercise leadership, because they might feel shy, they might feel that it's not enough for them or they do not have qualities that are required.
And what you are talking about is actually phenomenal, because everyone can be a leader, if he has those values and understands that it's about something that is bigger than themselves. It's about actually overcoming their own ego, and thinking about the outside world.

I love this because when we actually overcome the ego, and when we stop victimizing ourselves and putting ourselves in the position where we would think that where we have everyone else to blame, there were dialects completely different. There is where with a big responsibility, you also have great rewards there is where one can become actually an architect change now protected their own destiny. This is just brilliant.

I wanted to move further in our discussion about how leadership shifted in the last 20 years. Because if you look at the sustainability of movement, if you look at diversity and inclusion, this is rising right now. But 20 years ago, it was not like that. And many would argue that leadership 20 years ago, in 2000, would be more about autocratic leadership more totalitarian more about revenues. And now I see many countries, even when they invest, they think about sustainability model of the company, for example, in Sweden, they do not think about revenues first, when investors invest in the company, they think about, is this going to bring positive impact in the long run? So we've shifted the mindset. And do you think this is what's happening?

Dr. Michael Leslie
Leadership Title
I think that everything you've said is spot on. One of the things that I think has been the biggest difference is that people no longer at least a lot of people, a lot of us no longer expect someone who has the leadership title. The authority if you would, to do everything, or in other words to be to make it all happen. Because you as I said, an earlier part of this.

Conceptualizing leadership:
There's a different way of conceptualizing leadership, or even oneself, which is even more important. Let's start with that. When you're looking at yourself as being separate from everyone else, which is what you mentioned the ego perhaps, then, you know, you are actually quite detached from the people that you're seeking to have an impact on.

If there's another way of looking at oneself, which is the self as a larger self, like you Angelica and I are the same self, if you will, that the people that work for us are not like them. They're also us, and so when you approach it from that way sacred your pop the population or the employees of a company, or even your family, right, then it's not us. And then it's more, it's Lee. What can we do?

How can we approach this, that's why the conversation then shifts to not just a dialogue, but actually a sharing of perceptions, views, and understandings? And because it's, there's not one way to accomplish something, there's not even one way that things should be accomplished. There is not even one way that one needs to be sometimes, here, this might be helpful. So sometimes, in order to lead effectively, you need to be a good follower of what other people are saying, sometimes when you to lead effectively, you need to actually be someone who's moving, trying to see a different perspective, like a critic, you can be a critic, not someone who's actually saying this should be done this way. But you can be a critic of what other people are doing or suggest you're gonna have an input that way.

And of course, there is a way of leaning in which you know, you're out front, everyone is following you. That model doesn't work anymore. It doesn't work because people have come to see themselves as having the ability to think for themselves to reason they have act, we have access to information that we all of us that we didn't have access to before, we have our own way of apprehending reality. No respecting that when I'm speaking to someone, as I'm speaking to you, at this moment, when I'm speaking to you, I'm actually I take the position, if you would, and it's in our model, that I'm speaking to myself, you're not the enemy, you're not in, you're not the antithesis of me, you're not something, someone, I'm trying to get to do something, we're doing something together. And we're and we're looking for ways to align on how to do that something together. That's, I think that's a large part of the transformation. The other thing I would say is something we perhaps mentioned a little earlier, which is the source of leadership is not in a title. It's not in a position. It's not because I'm a director of some business that I own, that I exercise leadership is completely opposite.

My source of leadership and Jonica is in my listening. The power is in my ability to listen to others, and to listen to how I'm listening to them. My listening, have you, for example, in this moment, is an intelligent and a professional is skilled, you know, and enthusiastic, a willing, a lie determined, right, like committed person. So I'm speaking into that, rather than I don't really know if this person really, Angelica really, you know, respects me? And what is she thinking about me unless she liked me? And lets you know what she's talking about? That that listening prevents me from actually hearing and seeing who you are? More importantly, have you making a contribution to the project we're doing together? So those out summarize what isn't a transformation of our listening. And then the second is a transformation of who we are while I'm sorry, who we hold ourselves to be. I'm not separate from you. You're not separate for me. We're working on this together.

Angelika Sharygina:
While this is a brilliant doctor, Leslie, I have no words because this is very hard opening, because leadership is actually not too appealing to someone's personalities to appealing to someone's heart. And I would like to ask you a question based on your incredible experience of leadership execution within the last 20 years. What would be your advice to academics to deans to everyone that is involved in new systems of education? What would be your advice towards how they can contribute to this new leadership?

Dr. Michael Leslie
I will say this, thank you for that opening to say these words. This is heartfelt as you put it earlier, it because it comes from whom I'm being so, and I'm being an opening, I'm just being an opening for this model to be expanded further into the world.
Here's what's available for all of us, whether we're Dean's, or professors, or administrators, or even students. And that's the giving ourselves the opportunity to see, we took some explore, or the world word is discover, discover who we are, who we have been being in the world, like, what our frames of reference are, how we think the world is put together. Discovery perhaps for the first time gives you access to being different. So you know, in the course, there are some constraints, if you would, I mentioned one of them, how we listen to other people, you know, we listened to them as though there, they're less than, or maybe even more than, you know, something prevents us from being with them authentically, in our listening of who we're seeing in front of us. So this, of course, allows you to get access to how you are listening. It also gives you access to what are some of the other constraints on how you behave.

For example, some people you know, most of us as human beings, we've learned certain ways of surviving, you know, we dominate other people in conversations, or we are we when signs get difficult, we remove ourselves from the conversation, we go away, I'm sorry, I'm busy, I'm on my phone, you know, whatever to escape from booking and being in the conversation.

The course gives you access to seeing discovery, if you would, your ways of being that you're not aware of how you see the world, your frame of reference for the world, how the world should function, you have a picture of it. But that might not be the picture, that might be lucky, it but might be an inaccurate picture. For the very least, it's a way of looking at things that don’t work when you're working with other people who have a different frame. So that's, that's another access for people in the course to transforming how they're being when they're leading.

That has to be more effective. And leading. There are many other parts of the course that we in this course of this interview, we don't have time to talk about, but essentially, the course is an opportunity for anyone to examine, to take a look to discover what they can't see what you can see Angelica about yourself, and what Michael can see about himself to discover that part, that's like our blind spot. And in the discovery of that, you have an opportunity to be different. I mean, once you see something, you know, you can set it aside, you can modify it, you can, you know, you're free, to be in a new in a different way. And that freedom is what we talked about when we say an ontological approach. Who are you being that I will have you be effective in a meeting?

Angelika Sharygina
This is beyond inspiring. And I know that everyone that is watching us today, like West Conference, they're really very interested in your word, and in transforming the educational systems across the globe, into this new model we do not compete, where we collaborate, where we collaborate together for a better world for the next generations. And I would like to go to another direction and ask you a question that would be very interesting for everyone who is among younger audience that is watching us now. And the question would be, what is the advice you would give to 20-year-old students right now, that would love to become leaders?

Dr. Michael Leslie
That's a challenging question. I've been teaching for over 37 years now at various universities. And I've had an opportunity to meet students from different cultures, as well as from different political perspectives. I've included that way. This is actually a challenging question. So let me take a minute to look, you see, and I'm looking, looking and this is a part of what we do in the leadership course. You actually stop and you walk yes. Islamic I haven't made up an answer to this. So let me book Yeah, my role to this and I can't say it's for everyone, but I think it's worked for me and for many others I know is to actually rigorously engage yourself in a program that has you look at who you are. It's the made-up part of ourselves that gets in the way, you know, I'm a, I'm going to be a doctor, I'm going to be a lawyer, I'm going to be an engineer, all this sort of my parents want this to happen for me, I got to make money. And we're going to have all of that, you know, you that you inherited that you and I Angelica, we inherited that from society, from our parents from the church from, you know, if we've been in the military, I mean, we it's all something that was imposed upon us. And we think that's is who we are.

For young people, it's important to actually take a look, if you were not all of those things, who would you be? What's the possibility for your life? If it's not what everyone is telling you? What might the possibility be like an exploration?
And it's a challenging exploration, as I said, for it usually takes some time. And the point of what we're attempting to do, and what we are doing, is to get this into the school systems. This ontological approach this reflection, if you would so that people are freed up, they're not doing for, you know, 20 years or 30 years, what their mother told them to do, or what the church told them to do, or when their fathers died, or when the institution tells them to do, what they're freed up to actually look for, perhaps for most of us for the first time, at the outset with the question, who am I really? And what are the possibilities for me really, like that? So that's what I would encourage young people to do is to put themselves in a place program, of course, in which they actually get a chance to take a look.

Angelika Sharygina
I love that. And I believe that academics, faculty members, Dean's university presidents, and professors that are watching right now, would be extremely happy to actually communicate with you, Dr. Leslie, and get insights from you after the conference is over, on how to exercise this, their institution. I believe that towards younger generation, we'll look into, we see that their values have changed. We see that right now. It's a lot about not only money, revenues, not only success, and success has been completely redefined. The meaning of success was redefined within the last 10 years. Right now, I can see we summarize that true success. True leadership is not about revenues. It's about the number of lives you've impacted. It's about real, measurable impact. If you could summarize, would you? What would you see in this impact? What do you think, is the best tool to measure it? I have a question because before the session just before we begin with some summarizing, I have a question from a student, and they were really anticipating your interview. We have a question from Aisha, she's a student from the UAE. She says penal, introverts develop leadership qualities, this is a very interesting question. So, I would get back to you on that.

Dr. Michael Leslie
Aisha, That's a great question. It comes, full circle to what we're doing here in this work and I sincerely hope you have an opportunity to participate in it at your university or elsewhere. So here's the thing I You shall this BS labels that we put on ourselves, I'm an introvert. I'm an extrovert, you know, I'm shy. I'm outgoing. Those are all labels. Those are things that I when I was speaking earlier about how we have frames of reference for ourselves, An introvert? If you're an introvert, well, obviously you won't do X, Y and Z. You won't talk to people, you'll keep to yourself, you know, all those kinds of things. But if you could let go, you see, that's the power of this word.

Maybe if you did, if you take a look, you find out well, maybe I'm not an introvert. Maybe that's what someone has told me about myself, or even I've told myself about myself, but it's not actually true. And so once you feed yourself from the definition of, I'm an introvert, then everything in leadership becomes possible to you. If I'm not an introvert, make me back and stand up and say something, if I'm not an introvert, then maybe I can share what I have to say if other people you see. So that's the power of transforming who one is being right. And it's some work, you'll have to do some work because, you know, there's a reason why you think you're an introvert, not just because people told you probably you've been practicing being an introvert for a long time in your life, I practice being an extrovert for a long time in my professional life, kind of all if you would but not discovered that I have more power, and just listening.


Angelika Sharygina
This is beyond powerful. And I know that today's interview has generated massive excitement and interest among everyone who was just watching us today. And I would like to remind our viewers that we are now live at West Conference, the very first world's higher education Reiki Summit. And today, we're joined by industry leaders, academics, professors, brightest minds of the world that are working together collaboratively to innovate and make education systems around the world better for students. And I was really honored today to have this incredible, really powerful, thought-provoking, provoking, and raw discussion with Dr. Leslie, I am beyond grateful for your contribution towards truth, and everything because, for me, personally, this interview was extremely insightful, I realized so much about leadership and how we can execute it. And it's super important for everyone who was listening, watching this, to actually be honest, to be to stop having any labels, and to understand that it's not about us, it's about the whole world, and we are the home. So I love it. And I definitely would love to summarize this by giving you Dr. Leslie the last word on who you think, is super important for the next generations, for the next 10 years, for all the academics in the world to work on in real of leadership?


Dr. Michael Leslie
That's let me I'll say it this way, I encourage you to go to our website, it's called beingaleader.org. To take a look at this model of teaching, if you would, leadership and examine it, consider the possibility of having it in your organization. And whether it be a unit at an academic institution or having some version of a talk or exposed to your staff members or to even for yourselves primarily, you know, I think it would make a huge difference for yourself.

Here's the key to all of this. It's incumbent upon us just take a look. If what we're doing in the way we're doing it is not effective is not as effective as we'd like it to be. Perhaps there's a different way of doing it. You know, this is a different model. It's new, it's been tried by several universities around the world. And it has produced those results. In fact, in terms of training leaders, creating leaders who are effective in leading because they're being has been transformed, who they're being as leaders, has been transformed. So the course is called being a leader in effective exercise leadership and ontological phenomenological model approach to it. I hope you'll take a look at it, consider it and if you would like to explore it further. I'm available for consultation with do offer formally every year, and you're invited to attend. So that's what I would say. And lastly, I keep in mind, I always keep in mind that we can when I say we, I mean those of us who are attending this conference, we're the ones that are going to have the impact on the next generation. So unless we are transformed, we’re have little possibility of transforming the next generation. So those are my final words. And thank you for listening.

Angelika Sharygina
Thank you so much, Dr. Leslie, it's been a truly inspiring interview. And myself has learned so much, and I think beyond the stocks right now, of limitations. So thank you so much for this. And we are looking forward to another session with Dr. Last week, very soon, in a panel discussion where you would be able to express more, express more on that. Thank you so much, Dr. Leslie.